Unique swarm

[bk]

_

Was working in my shed this morning when I heard alot of bee buzzing going on.  Nothing going on inside.  Stepped outside and saw thousands of bees in the air.  Swarm in process.  Crap, that wasn't anything I wanted to see so late in the season. This beek watched and waited to see where they were off to.  Then it got weird.  The cloud gradually settled on one of my hives.  From the size of the growing beard, I'd estimate there were about five pounds of bees gathered around the hive and under the bottom board.  In the course of the next two hours they all went inside, what was already a rather full hive.  Will check them tomorrow and I'm guessing that they will need another hive body.  Tonight the hive seems calm and every thing is normal, field bees coming and going and the guard bees protecting the hive.  Very odd to say the least.  The more I know about bees the more curves they throw my way.


Guess I don't need swarm traps if they are going to trap themselves.

[swampcat]

That is amazing, do you think there are two queens? That will be interesting to inspect soon..

I've decided the bees can't read the book.. at least the books I am studying..

[pokeyjeeper]

Wow that is strange hope all is well with them

[Brad H.]

That's a new one. Can't figure out how that would work. Would they overtake and kill the queen already in that hive and then all workers would respect the new queen?

[bk]

Inspected the hive last evening.  Bees were a little grumpy, but it was sprinkling out before the rain moved in.  LOTS and lots of bees, pretty much filled the whole hive.  I couldn't find the queen (or maybe queens), but between the numbers and their grumpy attitude, I wasn't surprised.  Will check for eggs later this week.

I suspect the swarm just took over and killed the existing queen, but maybe I'll get lucky and find a marked queen and be able to do some detective work to sort unique swarm out.

[pokeyjeeper]

Bk with that hive packed full of bee like it is could it swarm again I ask as being a newbee I'm trying to learn

[bk]

Aug 24, 2017 4:28:24 GMT -5 pokeyjeeper said:

Bk with that hive packed full of bee like it is could it swarm again I ask as being a newbee I'm trying to learn

They sure can, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did.  Plan on watching them closely, but will let the bees be bees and see what they can teach me this time.  Swarms up here in northern Wisconsin this time of year are a challenge to overwinter - lack of stores or numbers.  This one has the numbers, but no stores to amount to anything.  Will take alot of feeding to get them enough to overwinter.
Great question, pokeyjeeper.

[pokeyjeeper]

Thanks bk now another question do you know where the swarm came from

[bk]

Aug 25, 2017 19:28:02 GMT -5 pokeyjeeper said:

Thanks bk now another question do you know where the swarm came from

Didn't find the queen the other night, so don't know yet if she is marked.  My other hive still had large numbers so I'm thinking it was one of the neighbors -a beek a 1/4 mile away and another about a 1/2 mile to the east.  Still trying to sort this situation out - might take awhile.

[pokeyjeeper]

Ok just trying to learn but some of the Facebook groups I'm on some beeks are having their hives swarm lately and I'm trying to figure out why as I don't want mine to I think they are good but I'm new

[swampcat]

I'm still in the dearth here, and feeding heavy, I worry about mine swarming also.. but scared to open up a hive afraid I might get robbing started.. Last thing I would want to see now is my hive swarm, to many dragon flies, birds and queen eaters flying around now. I think thats one reason my split failed the queen didn't make it back from the mating flight..

I've already decided that I will do a lot of things different early next spring.. before the barn swallows and dragon flies show up..

[bk]

Aug 25, 2017 22:22:04 GMT -5 pokeyjeeper said:

Ok just trying to learn but some of the Facebook groups I'm on some beeks are having their hives swarm lately and I'm trying to figure out why as I don't want mine to I think they are good but I'm new

Ninty five percent of the time a swarm is a sign of a healthy hive.  Humans tend to think of bees purpose as making honey, but bees purpose is to make bees and to continue their genetic line.  The honey we take (should be) is their extra stores.  

The biggest thing I have found to prevent swarming is room.  Room for brood, room for pollen and necture, and did I mention room for brood.  You can have a pretty big hive - bee number wise, and not have swarming issues, but it just depends on the bees.

Good luck with your ladies.

[pokeyjeeper]

Ok thanks bk

[bk]

Update...

Did a round of mite checks today, including the unique swarm hive.    My mite load was very good except for the unique hive - 9 per 100 bees, pretty nasty.  No queen to be seen, but a number of cells.  In doing the check we saw a queen emerge from her cell.  In prepping to treat the hive we saw two more emerge.  That was pretty interesting.  Sorry, no pics as my cell phone was inside my bee suit, dumb place for it I know.  Hope one queen makes it to get this swarm back on track again before winter.  Fingers are crossed.  Plenty of bee numbers and stores, but no queen in evidence.

(If you haven't done a mite check, do it.  For the health of your bees and for your neighbors bees.  It isn't hard.  See the basic process at www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/beelab.umn.edu/files/poster_155_ps_24x33_no_back_interim_s.ppt.pdf  or at articles.extension.org/pages/22279/powder-sugar-roll-for-varroa-sampling )

[swampcat]

Thanks BK

I've been undecided about opening up the hive right now.. been feeding heavy still golden rod is about to bloom here, bees are working buckwheat and dandelion in the mornings. I have one of those heaters to hook to a battery to vaporize the oxalic acid.. I am thinking just to stick that in the hive and vaporize it.. I still don't have a respirator guess next time I'm in town will pick one up. still kind of cautious about it, learning new stuff..
well I'm just unsure.. but I know I have to do something..

[bk]

Sept 4, 2017 20:04:17 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Thanks BK

I've been undecided about opening up the hive right now.. been feeding heavy still golden rod is about to bloom here, bees are working buckwheat and dandelion in the mornings. I have one of those heaters to hook to a battery to vaporize the oxalic acid.. I am thinking just to stick that in the hive and vaporize it.. I still don't have a respirator guess next time I'm in town will pick one up. still kind of cautious about it, learning new stuff..
well I'm just unsure.. but I know I have to do something..

Swampcat, sounds like you are still in the flow.  If it were my hive, I'd open and do a sugar roll to see the mite load.  If it is high, then treat.  I have a DIY oxalic vaporizer that works great.  If there is a light breeze, it isn't a problem, even without a respirator.

My theory is if you treat without knowing if you need to, you are creating stronger mites.  I'd rather treat only if needed and try to create stronger bees.

It is a learning experience and once you have it figured out, the bees throw a curve and you feel like you are back at square one.

Good luck with the ladies.  Expect a strong smelling hive when the ladies are on the goldenrod.

[swampcat]

Sept 5, 2017 6:46:27 GMT -5 bk said:

Sept 4, 2017 20:04:17 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Thanks BK

I've been undecided about opening up the hive right now.. been feeding heavy still golden rod is about to bloom here, bees are working buckwheat and dandelion in the mornings. I have one of those heaters to hook to a battery to vaporize the oxalic acid.. I am thinking just to stick that in the hive and vaporize it.. I still don't have a respirator guess next time I'm in town will pick one up. still kind of cautious about it, learning new stuff..
well I'm just unsure.. but I know I have to do something..

Swampcat, sounds like you are still in the flow.  If it were my hive, I'd open and do a sugar roll to see the mite load.  If it is high, then treat.  I have a DIY oxalic vaporizer that works great.  If there is a light breeze, it isn't a problem, even without a respirator.

My theory is if you treat without knowing if you need to, you are creating stronger mites.  I'd rather treat only if needed and try to create stronger bees.

It is a learning experience and once you have it figured out, the bees throw a curve and you feel like you are back at square one.

Good luck with the ladies.  Expect a strong smelling hive when the ladies are on the goldenrod.

Thanks BK

I'm going to try it.. saw it on you tube. so I have a idea about how to do it.. can't hurt to give it a shot..

I like your thinking about not treating unless necessary. I know my mentors are afraid to treat. they lost a hive after they put in strips last season.. the bees just left.. I have to make a gas run for the mower this morning will pick up some powered sugar.. and make my jar..
Thanks

later that day, I did it, I found out I didn't have it all figured out but was close enough to get a good read on the
situation.. I counted about 20 mites, from around about a half cup of bees.. so I know now I have to get on with the treatments.. Thanks for the encouragement, it was a good learning experience..
One thing for sure after shaking those bees,, they get extra mad, they ran me off.. for a minute or two..as soon as they hit the hive all the bees attacked.. I didn't see that coming..

[bk]

Good job with doing a mite check.  20 mites is going to be about seven per 100, and I'd treat the hive if it were mine.  I'm with you in that I'll only treat when it is essential for the hive to survive, as in the mites are winning.  I have only heard of a hive leaving during treating if they didn't have air movement through the hive.  Have heard of hives killing their queen - like it was her fault they got treated.

Will share my process and a couple possible tricks to help with a sugar roll, swampcat.  Hate to see the ladies attacking their keeper.
1. Select a frame with capped brood and plenty of bees.  Inspect and be sure her royal highness isn't on the frame
2. Standing the frame on edge vertically, give it one good, quick, hard shake into a bucket or container.  I use a plastic tub / dishpan. Multiple shakes tend to add nectar to the bees and makes a sticky mess of the bees.
3. Wait a minute or two for the field bees to fly off, you will be left with mostly nurse bees, who aren't likely to sting (most of them haven't matured enough to sting).  Scoop up a half cup (300 bees)and put in your jar with the screened lid, sit in the shade.
4. Put your hive back together.  Your jar of bees will be noisy and waiting for you.
5. Add powered sugar.  Use hive tool to scoop, more sugar is better than not enough.  Two or three scoops is about right - scoop what you can easily get into the screened lid without dumping it all over.
6. Shake the crap out of the jar, then sit it in the shade.  Bees need to heat up enough for the mites to drop, but not enough to kill themselves.  I wait two minutes.
7. Shake the sugar and mites into a white container.  Shake until sugar stops coming out.  Be vigorous but think of seasoning your food, not trying to kill or stun anything.
8. Loosen jar lid, lift your inner hive cover, unscrew the jar lid and dump the bees on top of the frames.  Replace inner cover and button up your hive, most everyone will be inside.  Bees will clean up the sugar coated bees.
9. Add water to your white container and dissolve the sugar.  Count the mites.  Be sure you don't count other debris.  Divide your count by three and you will have mites per hundred bees.

Good luck, swampcat, and keep us posted.

[farmertrappe]

That is some fine advise right there.

[swampcat]

Did the first treatment this morning, was wet overcast kind of rainy off and on.. most bees in the hive.. It even started raining as I was finishing up.. wasn't sure of the vaporizer never tried it before and a little unsure of the old tractor battery I was using.. anyway I let it work a while then not seeing vapor or smelling anything noticeable i pulled the vaporizer back out a little to see what was happening.. It was working and vapor coming off the pan.. put it back in to cool off.. So tomorrow I will pull the bottom cover sheet and check for mites. If successful I will treat the other hive next to it.. all and all nothing to it, Its just a new thing to me and I was a little unsure at how to proceed with it.. at first the bees came out on the front of the hive and grouped up.. but a little later things were back to normal..

[Brad H.]

Sept 6, 2017 11:05:48 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Did the first treatment this morning, was wet overcast kind of rainy off and on.. most bees in the hive.. It even started raining as I was finishing up.. wasn't sure of the vaporizer never tried it before and a little unsure of the old tractor battery I was using.. anyway I let it work a while then not seeing vapor or smelling anything noticeable i pulled the vaporizer back out a little to see what was happening.. It was working and vapor coming off the pan.. put it back in to cool off.. So tomorrow I will pull the bottom cover sheet and check for mites. If successful I will treat the other hive next to it.. all and all nothing to it, Its just a new thing to me and I was a little unsure at how to proceed with it.. at first the bees came out on the front of the hive and grouped up.. but a little later things were back to normal..

If the vaporizer is working correctly you should see it rolling out of the hive after you are done, and the burner should just have some remnants of burnt oxalic acid leftover. When we did it at my place, we pulled the ATV up and left it running while hooking it up to the battery. I suspect that burner will run through a battery pretty quickly, and if it wasn't fully charged may not have the desired effect.

[swampcat]

Sept 6, 2017 22:45:57 GMT -5 Brad H. said:

Sept 6, 2017 11:05:48 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Did the first treatment this morning, was wet overcast kind of rainy off and on.. most bees in the hive.. It even started raining as I was finishing up.. wasn't sure of the vaporizer never tried it before and a little unsure of the old tractor battery I was using.. anyway I let it work a while then not seeing vapor or smelling anything noticeable i pulled the vaporizer back out a little to see what was happening.. It was working and vapor coming off the pan.. put it back in to cool off.. So tomorrow I will pull the bottom cover sheet and check for mites. If successful I will treat the other hive next to it.. all and all nothing to it, Its just a new thing to me and I was a little unsure at how to proceed with it.. at first the bees came out on the front of the hive and grouped up.. but a little later things were back to normal..

If the vaporizer is working correctly you should see it rolling out of the hive after you are done, and the burner should just have some remnants of burnt oxalic acid leftover. When we did it at my place, we pulled the ATV up and left it running while hooking it up to the battery. I suspect that burner will run through a battery pretty quickly, and if it wasn't fully charged may not have the desired effect.

Brad your right, I pulled the slide in board last evening to check for mites, I didn't see much but it looks like most of the acid spilled on to the board. I don't know how that happened. maybe it hit bur comb and raked it out, I'm at a loss, it seems very little actually vaporized. going to give it another try today on another hive.. I'll put a good charge on the battery this time.

[bk]

Sept 6, 2017 11:05:48 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Did the first treatment this morning, was wet overcast kind of rainy off and on.. most bees in the hive.. It even started raining as I was finishing up.. wasn't sure of the vaporizer never tried it before and a little unsure of the old tractor battery I was using.. anyway I let it work a while then not seeing vapor or smelling anything noticeable i pulled the vaporizer back out a little to see what was happening.. It was working and vapor coming off the pan.. put it back in to cool off.. So tomorrow I will pull the bottom cover sheet and check for mites. If successful I will treat the other hive next to it.. all and all nothing to it, Its just a new thing to me and I was a little unsure at how to proceed with it.. at first the bees came out on the front of the hive and grouped up.. but a little later things were back to normal..

With my home brewed vaporizer, I did a test run outside my shop.  Found it took about 4 minutes to start vaporizing and the almost exactly two minutes to complete.  With that knowledge, I hit my apiary the first time. 
The vapor will start coming out of the hive when everything is working properly.
I tend to treat after dark.  Put in the vaporizer and then I plug the entrance with a towel.  I slide a piece of cardboard under my bottom board to block up the hive.  When the time is up, I pull the vaporizer and sit it in the damp grass to cool, add more acid and hit the next hive.  Found I need to cool it a bit or the fresh acid immediately starts vaporizing.
Good luck with your vaporizing.

[swampcat]

Sept 7, 2017 22:03:31 GMT -5 bk said:

Sept 6, 2017 11:05:48 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Did the first treatment this morning, was wet overcast kind of rainy off and on.. most bees in the hive.. It even started raining as I was finishing up.. wasn't sure of the vaporizer never tried it before and a little unsure of the old tractor battery I was using.. anyway I let it work a while then not seeing vapor or smelling anything noticeable i pulled the vaporizer back out a little to see what was happening.. It was working and vapor coming off the pan.. put it back in to cool off.. So tomorrow I will pull the bottom cover sheet and check for mites. If successful I will treat the other hive next to it.. all and all nothing to it, Its just a new thing to me and I was a little unsure at how to proceed with it.. at first the bees came out on the front of the hive and grouped up.. but a little later things were back to normal..

With my home brewed vaporizer, I did a test run outside my shop.  Found it took about 4 minutes to start vaporizing and the almost exactly two minutes to complete.  With that knowledge, I hit my apiary the first time. 
The vapor will start coming out of the hive when everything is working properly.
I tend to treat after dark.  Put in the vaporizer and then I plug the entrance with a towel.  I slide a piece of cardboard under my bottom board to block up the hive.  When the time is up, I pull the vaporizer and sit it in the damp grass to cool, add more acid and hit the next hive.  Found I need to cool it a bit or the fresh acid immediately starts vaporizing.
Good luck with your vaporizing.

That was my main problem never tried the vaporizer out nor timed it, mine is slower than most. Now that I know that I take my time with it, and the second hive I did got very good results.. I pulled the bottom card board this morning and it has a lot of dead mites on it.. Thanks Guys.. been a big help to me..

[swampcat]

Hey guys,

I did my second treatment last evening of both hives. Things worked out even better this time, had the smoke rolling out of the hive, was a little worried I had set it on fire... pulled the bottom white board this morning and it looked about like it did after the first good treatment.. its getting the mites for sure..

The question I have now is, how many times do you treat your hives? Right now I am thinking to keep treatments up every week until I see a marked decrease in the mite dead count.. Or is there a better idea?

[Brad H.]

Sept 16, 2017 11:30:00 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Hey guys,

I did my second treatment last evening of both hives. Things worked out even better this time, had the smoke rolling out of the hive, was a little worried I had set it on fire... pulled the bottom white board this morning and it looked about like it did after the first good treatment.. its getting the mites for sure..

The question I have now is, how many times do you treat your hives? Right now I am thinking to keep treatments up every week until I see a marked decrease in the mite dead count.. Or is there a better idea?

I've only really ever heard of people treating once in the spring and once in the fall. I'm sure bk has a better idea though.

[swampcat]

Sept 16, 2017 22:15:59 GMT -5 pokeyjeeper said:

I've read 2-4 treatment a week apart and for best results do it when the brood is all hatched out as the vapor will not kill the mites under the capped brood

PJ Thats what I'm thinking too, I am surprised with the results from each treatment, I didn't expect the second one to look so close to the first results. However some of it may be my getting familiar with using the equipment and process.. one hive I tried to close off the entrance to slowly that was a mistake many bees escaped, and the first treatments I had no idea how long the vaporizer needed to be left on.. I am feeling much more confident in the treatments now. Monday I am going to help my mentors with treating their hives, they used another method last season and the bees left the hive..so they are reluctant to treat. They have been very helpful with getting me involved with bees, and always will drop by to look things over and answer my questions.. and I appreciate the swampers here who have been so helpful also.

PJ I am thinking that because we both are just starting in bee keeping we have many of the same questions, and same thoughts.. I am contemplating multiplying hives next spring, maybe around thirty or so..still not sure how that might work out, I'm building boxes this winter to that end.. I think that my Mid June split was to late in the season, I had barn swallows flying all around and many dragon flies.. I believe my queen didn't make it back to her hive, then I made a mistake after I harvested the honey to put the empty frames to close to the split hive, it started robbing the split was robbed out.
Early April seems the time for splits here.

Good Luck with the bees and thanks for the advice..

[bk]

Sept 17, 2017 8:15:35 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Sept 16, 2017 22:15:59 GMT -5 pokeyjeeper said:

I've read 2-4 treatment a week apart and for best results do it when the brood is all hatched out as the vapor will not kill the mites under the capped brood

PJ Thats what I'm thinking too, I am surprised with the results from each treatment, I didn't expect the second one to look so close to the first results. However some of it may be my getting familiar with using the equipment and process.. one hive I tried to close off the entrance to slowly that was a mistake many bees escaped, and the first treatments I had no idea how long the vaporizer needed to be left on.. I am feeling much more confident in the treatments now. Monday I am going to help my mentors with treating their hives, they used another method last season and the bees left the hive..so they are reluctant to treat. They have been very helpful with getting me involved with bees, and always will drop by to look things over and answer my questions.. and I appreciate the swampers here who have been so helpful also.

PJ I am thinking that because we both are just starting in bee keeping we have many of the same questions, and same thoughts.. I am contemplating multiplying hives next spring, maybe around thirty or so..still not sure how that might work out, I'm building boxes this winter to that end.. I think that my Mid June split was to late in the season, I had barn swallows flying all around and many dragon flies.. I believe my queen didn't make it back to her hive, then I made a mistake after I harvested the honey to put the empty frames to close to the split hive, it started robbing the split was robbed out.
Early April seems the time for splits here.

Good Luck with the bees and thanks for the advice..

It sure is amazing when you see the mite drop from a successful treatment.  Good job!
A couple of comments...
OA, and for that matter, any of the chemical treatments are going to impact the queen.  Remember she will possibly be treated many times where workers will only get one, or maybe two treatments due to their lifespan.  Not many years ago, queens were good for many years, those days are gone and I'm convinced some of that is due to the many chemicals she has come in contact with. 
OA only work on mites on adult bees, not on the sealed brood.  If I need to treat and am using OA, I try and treat when there is a brood break - November in NW Wisconsin is usually a great time.
I would only treat your bees if you know they need it - sugar roll or alcohol wash are the ways you know.
It is disheartening when your queen doesn't make it back from her breeding flight.  Been there myself.  It isn't just birds and such that get her.  She has only had a short time on a single flight to recognize home and properly orient to it as she heads out and it is thought that often the new queen returns to a different hive, where she will be balled by the bees or killed by the queen of the hive.
Keep us posted as to how your bee, and mite, journey progresses.