crawling around in front of the hive

[swampcat]

I've been watching the bees in the mornings. theres a lot of bees crawling around in front of the hive. A few seem to have deformed wings, but not all of them, and some do get air born. From my studying it seems a virus transmitted by the varrowa mite is the cause of deformed wings. I have treated the hive 3 times now with the oxalic acid vaporizer. each time i find dead mites on the bottom cover. Now I am thinking I may be the cause of it from all the treatments. At any rate I am saving up a little extra money for spring to buy a few more packages, in case these bees don't survive.. I inspected the hive yesterday, it seems healthy lots of bees and no SHB or Wax moths. No superseder cells or queen cells.
it had capped worker brood, lots of nectar and enough honey to carry it a while in my opinion..
I'm thinking to wait a week and open it up again.

the hive next to it gets the same treatment, it doesn't have noticeable bees crawling around in front of it..
I believe this hive has a wild queen from a swarm I caught last summer. I'm thinking it might be genetics.
I guess thats the mystery of bee keeping, ya take your best guess..

[pokeyjeeper]

Swamp cat the mites are coming out of the worker cells as they hatch and you wild swarm girls may have resistance to deformed wing virus the treatment your using is a soft treatment and should not hurt your bees good luck and I would see if you can find some local stock and not waste your money on a package Survivor stock is better in the long run

[swampcat]

Thanks PJ

your right the survivor stock would be a better investment.. I'll look about this winter and see what I can find. there are some local keepers and a bee farm up north of here..

here's my thinking on the acid treatment, it is an acid, and from what I've read and can tell by looking with a magnifying glass it melts off the mites legs and mouth parts. which after 3 treatments I am wondering what if any effect it has on developing larva and uncapped brood.. I haven't read any articles on the effects on the young bees. these walkers look to be young bees. if it melts legs off mites, it might injure young bee wings. Just speculation on my part.. I don't know..

Now I know someone is going to ask me where I read it melts off legs.. I have read so much on the subject I would have to go back through a lot of reading to find it now.. at this point I don't know where..

[pokeyjeeper]

If your bees make it through the winter I would split them and learn to make queens as you know what your bees are and their temperament and The cash you'll save that is what I will be doing next year hoping to be up to 6 hives by mid summer 3 langs and 3 top bars and maybe sell a few nuc's and queens had a lot of local keepers looking for queens this fall look up a queen castle and fat bee man on YouTube he shows how to make queens cheap and you been making your own hardware so I know you can do it

[swampcat]

PJ You figured me out..

Yes, thats my plans, I'm wanting 30 hives. I figure if I can sell 10 or 15 a year I could pay property taxes.

Check out Barnyard Bees, youtube channel, its about 80 miles up the road from here. alot of info about multiplying bees.. Dons a good channel also.. I think he's up east from here..

We'll get these bees figured out, and see how it all pans out..

I built 4 hive boxes yesterday. Planning to start early spring if this hive makes it through the winter, with 5 splits.

[old243]

swamp cat . Would the bees you see in the morning crawling, be drones. My girls are kicking the drones out, quite a few on the ground, dead and dying. Cruel little buggers. old 243

[swampcat]

I wish they were drones, but their workers, it seems worst this morning, lots of dead bees at the entrance..
about 10 or 15. Its cool and wet kind of rainy weather the bees aren't active..they aren't taking much sugar water either. fed about a half gallon Friday and about half of that still there.

I think they have some kind of virus or disease, I'm thinking these bees aren't going to make it much longer, lots of dead bees around the hive now. I was in the hive last week, didn't see any sign of wax moth or small hive beetles.. I plan to open the hive up this week again, being kind of new I think of things I might want to check after I close the hive.. I didn't notice young larva last time, but some frames were covered over so well I couldn't see what was under the bees.

Years ago when we had wild bees around here, I saw bees in the field like this walking on the ground and didn't seem to be able to fly.. after that the bees just disappeared.. Now there are local bee keepers around.

I don't grow GMO corn, but there might be a few backyard gardeners around who might for market sells..
I've always put it off on the GMO corn, if it kills moth larva, then I think the pollen might kill the bee larva or affect them in some way. Thats just my opinion..

[bk]

Oct 16, 2017 8:04:09 GMT -5 swampcat said:

I wish they were drones, but their workers, it seems worst this morning, lots of dead bees at the entrance..
about 10 or 15. Its cool and wet kind of rainy weather the bees aren't active..they aren't taking much sugar water either. fed about a half gallon Friday and about half of that still there.

I think they have some kind of virus or disease, I'm thinking these bees aren't going to make it much longer, lots of dead bees around the hive now. I was in the hive last week, didn't see any sign of wax moth or small hive beetles.. I plan to open the hive up this week again, being kind of new I think of things I might want to check after I close the hive.. I didn't notice young larva last time, but some frames were covered over so well I couldn't see what was under the bees.

Years ago when we had wild bees around here, I saw bees in the field like this walking on the ground and didn't seem to be able to fly.. after that the bees just disappeared.. Now there are local bee keepers around.

I don't grow GMO corn, but there might be a few backyard gardeners around who might for market sells..
I've always put it off on the GMO corn, if it kills moth larva, then I think the pollen might kill the bee larva or affect them in some way. Thats just my opinion..

Swampcat, it is hard to watch our bees die.  During the summer up north, a strong hive can easily have a couple hundred bees die each day.  They just wear out.  Most live only about six weeks.  I don't think I'd worry much about 10-15.  Most that die, do so away from the hive.  Anything look wrong with the dead bees you find?

That being said, take a look inside.  Do you have capped brood, larvae, and eggs?  How are your numbers.  Doesn't sound like it is an issue with pests and you sound like verroa is under control with your treatments.  Speaking of which, I almost always have some die off when treated with OA.  The mortuary bees haul the bodies to the entrance and dump them - no burial or ride in a hearse.

I am with you on questioning GMO crops - and the pesticides and herbicides we apply by the ton.  Certainly not bee friendly.

Keep us posted on what you find.

[swampcat]

Oct 16, 2017 20:42:34 GMT -5 bk said:

Oct 16, 2017 8:04:09 GMT -5 swampcat said:

I wish they were drones, but their workers, it seems worst this morning, lots of dead bees at the entrance..
about 10 or 15. Its cool and wet kind of rainy weather the bees aren't active..they aren't taking much sugar water either. fed about a half gallon Friday and about half of that still there.

I think they have some kind of virus or disease, I'm thinking these bees aren't going to make it much longer, lots of dead bees around the hive now. I was in the hive last week, didn't see any sign of wax moth or small hive beetles.. I plan to open the hive up this week again, being kind of new I think of things I might want to check after I close the hive.. I didn't notice young larva last time, but some frames were covered over so well I couldn't see what was under the bees.

Years ago when we had wild bees around here, I saw bees in the field like this walking on the ground and didn't seem to be able to fly.. after that the bees just disappeared.. Now there are local bee keepers around.

I don't grow GMO corn, but there might be a few backyard gardeners around who might for market sells..
I've always put it off on the GMO corn, if it kills moth larva, then I think the pollen might kill the bee larva or affect them in some way. Thats just my opinion..

Swampcat, it is hard to watch our bees die.  During the summer up north, a strong hive can easily have a couple hundred bees die each day.  They just wear out.  Most live only about six weeks.  I don't think I'd worry much about 10-15.  Most that die, do so away from the hive.  Anything look wrong with the dead bees you find?

That being said, take a look inside.  Do you have capped brood, larvae, and eggs?  How are your numbers.  Doesn't sound like it is an issue with pests and you sound like verroa is under control with your treatments.  Speaking of which, I almost always have some die off when treated with OA.  The mortuary bees haul the bodies to the entrance and dump them - no burial or ride in a hearse.

I am with you on questioning GMO crops - and the pesticides and herbicides we apply by the ton.  Certainly not bee friendly.

Keep us posted on what you find.

I talked to a friend who has four hives about 7 or 8 miles from here, he is going to remove the honey supers and down size his hives for winter Saturday. I'm going up to help him Saturday, I'm not sure he knows whats going on with my hives, but he is telling me its not uncommon to have big die offs in front of the hive. I can understand that in the summer time, but this late I'm not sure. I am thinking I need a build up for winter.

I do have capped brood and looks to me to be enough honey and pollen. Not sure about larva and eggs, I was a bit over my head last week when I was checking. I wanted in and out quick, there were a few frames completely covered with bees, that i didn't look at closely to see what was under them. I'll check that this week, I don't open the hive much so I'm not easy with it yet..

I'm still working on and studying what might be the problem. Still seeking out local bee keepers with questions.
I'm thinking I have an idea of the problem, but haven't found a solution yet, that I'm willing to try.

[swampcat]

Well it sounds kind of strange to me, but it was suggested I try grease sugar patties in the hive..

I thought about it a while and found a bee keeper on youtube that had the same problem and thats what he did and claimed the walker bees disappeared in a weeks time.. so thats what I did put a grease patty between the two brood boxes, and one on top of the top box..

Well I'm trying something, lets see if it works..

[bk]

Oct 18, 2017 11:15:22 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Well it sounds kind of strange to me, but it was suggested I try grease sugar patties in the hive..

I thought about it a while and found a bee keeper on youtube that had the same problem and thats what he did and claimed the walker bees disappeared in a weeks time.. so thats what I did put a grease patty between the two brood boxes, and one on top of the top box..

Well I'm trying something, lets see if it works..

Have heard of grease patties for tracheal mites.  Know a beek that swears by them for varroa, but doesn't test and has no proof of effectiveness.

What pest do you think your hive has, swampcat?  Are they unable to fly because of deformed wings?  

Sorry to ask, but I must have missed something in this chain of posts.

[old243]

I have a few dead bees on the doorstep, and on the ground. We had several cool days , very little outside movement. Today was warm and they were foraging. Could be they were just catching up on their house keeping. old243

[swampcat]

Oct 18, 2017 18:17:48 GMT -5 bk said:

Oct 18, 2017 11:15:22 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Well it sounds kind of strange to me, but it was suggested I try grease sugar patties in the hive..

I thought about it a while and found a bee keeper on youtube that had the same problem and thats what he did and claimed the walker bees disappeared in a weeks time.. so thats what I did put a grease patty between the two brood boxes, and one on top of the top box..

Well I'm trying something, lets see if it works..

Have heard of grease patties for tracheal mites.  Know a beek that swears by them for varroa, but doesn't test and has no proof of effectiveness.

What pest do you think your hive has, swampcat?  Are they unable to fly because of deformed wings?  

Sorry to ask, but I must have missed something in this chain of posts.

BK, I don't know what problem I have, I have treated the hive with oxalic acid three times and that should have knocked all mites down. Tracheal and varroa but every morning there are bunches of bees crawling around in front of the hive, seeming like they can't fly. the wings look ok to me and every now and then one will get air born. sometimes I will lift one up and it can fly off my hand a short distance, some get high and disappear.
some just fall off. this has been going on for two weeks now and there are lots of dead bees around the hive. Its not normal. The hive has a smell to it, but the golden rod is about played out now and that seems to be the cause of the smell. A local bee keeper looked at it and thought about it a while then called me Tuesday with the suggestion to try grease patty.. I wasn't excited about grease, its used as a bait for small hive beetle, but after checking around on the internet I saw that grease patty has been used for just such a problem.. I've only seen one SHB in the hive since I've had it and that was just after I installed the package.. probably came in with the package.

I've decided that if I lose this hive it was a good learning experience, and a base for next season.
I'm still planning on a lot of bees next season. built 5 more hive bodies yesterday.. will work on tops and bottoms today.

I don't know maybe I treated them to much, I was under the impression the oxalic acid wouldn't hurt the bees.
I am rethinking that now. However the hive next to it has the same treatment and its ok..
Bee Keeping doesn't seem to be an exact science yet.. if it were then there shouldn't be as many lost hives as it claims.

[pokeyjeeper]

Cat keep us posted I’ve had more bees on the front of my hive the last month but it’s been cooler and our flows are done they just seem to be hanging out but if a yellow jacket try’s to get in they ball them golden rod nectar does smell until it’s Cured and capped good luck bud

[bk]

Oct 19, 2017 5:59:35 GMT -5 swampcat said:

Oct 18, 2017 18:17:48 GMT -5 bk said:

Have heard of grease patties for tracheal mites.  Know a beek that swears by them for varroa, but doesn't test and has no proof of effectiveness.

What pest do you think your hive has, swampcat?  Are they unable to fly because of deformed wings?  

Sorry to ask, but I must have missed something in this chain of posts.

BK, I don't know what problem I have, I have treated the hive with oxalic acid three times and that should have knocked all mites down. Tracheal and varroa but every morning there are bunches of bees crawling around in front of the hive, seeming like they can't fly. the wings look ok to me and every now and then one will get air born. sometimes I will lift one up and it can fly off my hand a short distance, some get high and disappear.
some just fall off. this has been going on for two weeks now and there are lots of dead bees around the hive. Its not normal. The hive has a smell to it, but the golden rod is about played out now and that seems to be the cause of the smell. A local bee keeper looked at it and thought about it a while then called me Tuesday with the suggestion to try grease patty.. I wasn't excited about grease, its used as a bait for small hive beetle, but after checking around on the internet I saw that grease patty has been used for just such a problem.. I've only seen one SHB in the hive since I've had it and that was just after I installed the package.. probably came in with the package.

I've decided that if I lose this hive it was a good learning experience, and a base for next season.
I'm still planning on a lot of bees next season. built 5 more hive bodies yesterday.. will work on tops and bottoms today.

I don't know maybe I treated them to much, I was under the impression the oxalic acid wouldn't hurt the bees.
I am rethinking that now. However the hive next to it has the same treatment and its ok..
Bee Keeping doesn't seem to be an exact science yet.. if it were then there shouldn't be as many lost hives as it claims.

Swampcat, thanks for the info.  You are certainly correct, beekeeping isn't an exact science.  And when you have it all figured out - you'll quickly discover you really don't.

Weird hive smell isn't normal, but goldenrod does stink (like stinky socks), as does a number of other plants like asters.  Smell a frame of brood.  Are the caps sunken, discolored, and smell like rotten meat (think trapping bait)?  If so, it isn't plant nectar but likely foul brood.  Jump on that problem, if it is.

If you have treated with OA three times, and if you are getting good vaporization, varroa shouldn't be much of an issue.  Trust you are doing sugar rolls to determine the effectiveness of your treatments.  If you have / had a bad infestation, there are lots of viruses that come along, especially deformed wing.  That doesn't sound like it is the issue, since the bees can fly.  Sometimes old bees can be mis-diagnosed as deformed wing bees because old bees have worn out wings.

While OA is a "safe" treatment, it can be hard on a hive.  My rule of thumb is to only treat when the mite threshold is high when verified by a sugar roll.  Remember your queen is treated every time, even though most of the bees will be new - think six weeks during most of the summer.

You will get bee die off at the end of the season.  Mine are doing that, but then I just had a killing frost, so my bees are getting ready for another long, cold winter.  That being said, if it was my hive I would give it a thorough inspection, all frames, top to bottom and see what that could tell me.  Since the hive next to it is doing well, inspect that one next, and be just as thorough.  See what the bees can tell you in comparison.  That's a great reason for a new / newer beek to always have two hives.

Let us know your thoughts and what you learn.  Good luck.

[bk]

Oct 18, 2017 20:34:40 GMT -5 old243 said:

I have a few dead bees on the doorstep, and on the ground. We had several cool days , very little outside movement. Today was warm and they were foraging. Could be they were just catching up on their house keeping. old243

They sure could be, and this time of year us northern beeks know the hives are raising their winter bees and the summer / flow bees have come to an end of their usefulness to the hive.  Good observation, old243.

[swampcat]

Thanks Everyone for the suggestions, its great to be able to discuss problems with the group. It sure helps and broadens the information and ideas to be able to grasp what the problem may be..
Saturday I am going to help another bee keeper with his hives. He is downsizing for the winter.
So I am thinking to give it some time and see what the grease patty might do. I worked today with the son in law and didn't have a lot of time at home to check on things.

I hate it but I'm still reinventing the bee hive. So every one I build is different in some way and that takes a lot of time.. when I finally decide on the pattern I want to use it should go a lot quicker.. and I hope make the upkeep of my bees easier.

[swampcat]

Been busy the last few days haven't spent much time bee watching,

what time I have sat and watched, there are fewer bees walking now, the hive seems active lots of bees flying around. Now its curious, is the grease the cure or has some virus ran its course or the effects of being treated 3 times over.. to tell the truth I am feeling better about this hive having a chance to survive winter..

Really our winters aren't bad, it just doesn't usually get cold and stay cold for very long, and snow is more of a rarity here.. snow usually means a day off..

[swampcat]

I was overly optimistic.

Good news and Bad news..

Good first, the honey we harvested last July was entered in a regional taste testing, it placed second.. against one that had already claimed first place in Alabama.

The bad news, I noticed a lot of bees flying around all over the area, I didn't put it together at first, but the other morning I woke up with a thought, were those my bees? I checked the hive, it was, they were gone, the hive had dwindled down to low and most of the bees just left.. they didn't swarm, just left.. there are still a few bees flying around homeless now.. I don't know if another hive would accept them or not, at any rate I disassembled the hive stored all the frames and left the sections out for the yellow jackets to clean.. funny thing I did see yellow jackets displaying the same symptoms as my bees did before they left.. well I wonder if they were the carriers..

Still building up for next spring, going to give it a good shot then..

[pokeyjeeper]

That’s too bad I wonder what was wrong

[swampcat]

To be honest I don't know exactly what was wrong, of course I have an opinion of the problem..

because so many were crawling around in front of the hive, i think it may have been chronic bee paralysis virus.
from what I read its caused by varroa mites. The hive was losing ground, to fast and the bees just seem to have given up and left..

I'm not discouraged by it, still working on building equipment for spring to try it again.. This time I won't be jumping into something I have no idea about what I am doing.. did a lot of studying and thinking about it, so I have a plan this time.. I won't be limited by equipment, and should be ready to make the splits and grow bees. At least thats the plan for today...